Thank you for the kind words. I appreciate them.

God’s Glory,
Lew

I agree with everything in Lew’s post. The only thing I would add is that for Jesus, Paul, Peter, John, and all the rest, the synagogue was lost Jew central. Those were primarily evangelistic interactions. It’s not hard to follow Jesus’ lead on this one. Pick the nearest synagogue and go for it. Then you and I (and the rest of these guys) can get together with our families at my house on Sunday morning (or maybe Tuesday night; I don’t really care) and talk about how the Spirit worked through you to spread the gospel message. We can pray, sing, take the Supper, and enjoy one another’s company in the presence of the living God as we engage in conversation after conversation about His mercy and grace. Someone who feels led to share a teaching can stand up and instruct us. Someone who feels the urge to lift up words of praise to God in song can do so as we join in or simply close our eyes and listen with prayerful hearts. We’ll laugh, cry, pray, sing, eat, and whatever else is pleasing in His sight; always with the knowledge that we are being obedient to Him in our love for one another. With great anticipation we will look forward to the day when we stand bodily in His presence, together forever.

I don’t know about you, but the scenario above sounds much more appealing to me than sitting on my rump gazing intently at the mortified remains of a once vibrant and thriving collection of cells protruding from an epidermis on the anterior portion of some poor soul’s scalp; all the while listening to bad exegesis that is being monotonously approved by a chorus of “amens,” and no recourse whatsoever for correcting the offending instruction.

Gary

I think I just had a seizure :)…

Seriously though, I appreciate that your focus now is building relationships. Afterall, isn’t that what the Church is? One giant relationship with each other and God.

Bernard

I totally understand. I would hope that these discussions to don’t end in futile arguments, but rather differing groups willing to listen to what each other has to say. For the record, I never thought you were saying “my way or the highway.” If I eluded to that, I apologize.

I agree that we should be very careful about negative thoughts and experiences of others dragging us down. We should also be careful not to drag others down.

Alan

Thanks Alan. It is good to know of and hear about the positives that can come from these ideas. I think, ultimately, if we can all get to the mindset of “God’s way” the issue of Sunday morning meetings or Tuesday night meetings will not be the focus, but we will be focusing on each other and obeying God.

Rob

Welcome back. To be perfectly honest, I have been thinking about my response to you since you commented. It seems like you are upset at these posts and comments but have missed the thrust of what people have been saying. I guess the best way to respond is to talk about what I (and I think others) agree with you about.

I agree that the Christian life is not about rugged individualism, etc. I do not think anyone is saying that we gain nothing from social groupings. I am not sure that these ideas are being proposed by anyone here. If they are, then I would take issue with them as well. In fact, what I read in my post and in most of the commenter’s comments, I see people who are very concerned about community and fellowship. I see people who want to meet in groups to fulfill that which we find in scripture. The only difference is that I do not think that can be done during most traditional Sunday morning meetings.

I do not think anyone here thinks that the gates of hell will overcome the church either. Although some might say that it has overcome the institutions… but not the church itself (that is, the people whom God has called to follow and obey him). Although we do not agree in the local/universal distinction, I do agree that God has and continues to give his church gifts of grace to be used for his glory.

I have said this in previous comments, but I do not think anyone is concerned with the institutional church entertaining “our” needs. I think most people here are concerned with the institutional church preventing us from meeting the needs of “others.” The whole point of this post was to show how my boredom with “church” comes from the fact that I am completely unable to fulfill what I believe we should be fulfilling by meeting with each other. It is not my place to put down another because they did not encourage me, edify me, teach me, etc. But it is my place (according to scripture) to encourage, edify, teach the church, when we meet.

As far as your last paragraph, I think we pretty much agree on all of what you wrote. Except the part about complaining and being out of the will of God. I do not know if anyone here is not meeting with the body of Christ (although probably not according to your requirements). But surely no one here thinks that the body of Christ is here for our ill or enjoyment.

Overall, I agree with much of what you said… although if we were to define some terms, we’d probably agree a little less. The main thing I disagree with is some of your exegesis. For instance, your first three points. You and I both know that the original Sabbath was Saturday. The church traditionally meets on Sunday. Regardless of that fact, the church is not a day of the week so I fail to see your connection between “sabbath” and “church.” I agree wholeheartedly with the verse used in your second point. I do, however, think it is being misinterpreted. Note that that verse does not say anything at all about a special day of the week… but it does describe what it means to forsake the assembly (not encouraging, urging to love and good works, etc.). In your third point I do not understand how the custom of Jesus meeting in a synagogue equates to the tradition of meeting on Sunday in a different building (not a synagogue). Further, as far as I know the synagogue was used at least once a week (Saturday) if not, multiple times a week for prayer and teaching. You could say the church building takes place of the synagogue, but I fail to see the prescriptive element, even if it was the “custom” of Jesus. Futher, we know that God doesn’t care about man made sctructures, he cares about the building he created, his followers, the true Church.

I think you kind of shot yourself in the foot when you used these as your points. But you did continue by saying that the this is done historically, traditionally, and scripturally. While we find one or two instances of people gathering on Sunday in scripture, I think you might be hard pressed to find any scripture commanding or perscribing us to do so. As far as the historical and the traditional aspect of this meeting, I really find no prescriptive authority in either of those concepts.

By the way, I encourage you to research the “Lord’s Day” in scripture. I need to do more research about that phrase, but I find it extremely telling that the only time that phrase occurs is in Revalation a book almost entirely about the “Day of the Lord.”

I hope this helps you understand that we are not against the church… but we are for the church.

God’s Glory,
Lew

P.S. Have you had a chance to write anything up about my view of scripture? I would still love to read your defense/apologetic for scripture.

Your vocabulary is awesome, but you can’t read worth a flip.

Gary

1)”Honor the Sabbath day to keep it Holy”

2)”Forsake not the assembly of yourselves…”

3)”As was his custom, Jesus went into the synagogue…”

The Christian life has never been about rugged individualism with the believer alone with God, or with those few in which the person agrees. It is merely the strident and inappropriate application of Kirkegaardian existentialism in this modern era that says we gain nothing from social groupings that we cannot obtain alone or control. Compete and utter nonsense, and completely against Scripture! If the extreme of advocacy that is proposed here were taken, it would hearkens us back to medieval times with cloistered monasteries with very little interaction of those inside unless it was by their choosing.

I remind you that “the church” is a social institution not invented by man, but created by God, of which Jesus Christ is the head. He promised us that “the gates of hades will not overcome” the church – a fact that a lot of you it seems have already conceded to hell. He has lovingly and graciously given to the local church (and to the “church universal”) gifts of grace to be used in that congregation and throughout the world to be utilized for His glory. He knows and has caused to be written that we cannot do things independently alone – we require encouragement, help, and accountability – something that must come face to face, and within a living, breathing body of Christ of many members – not from meeting one on one with other believers believing incorrectly that what we will receive in that quick moment will be good enough.

What I hear some of you saying is that you believe the “institutional” church of today is not meeting your needs. When really did it become all about YOU? If you really, truly believed that there was no church body who met on the Lord’s Day who was doing it right(the Lord’s Day being that day in which believers historically, traditionally, and dutifully, and by Scripture commemorates the bodily resurrection of the Lord Jesus Christ, praising and worshiping God, and encouraging each other to do good work, and to share with others about His glorious good news!) then what you really would be doing is starting a fellowship of those of like mind, with the proper structure and authority of a New Testament church by your understanding of Scripture!(rather than congratulating yourselves about how you no longer go to church – Booyah that).

By all means, begin a service in your homes – frame it according to your understanding, share with others the good news and invite your friends, neighbors and co-workers to participate in worship of the King of Kings and Lord of Lords on His day! For goodness sakes be obedient to the Lord Jesus and belong to an accountable body which teaches, preaches, and worships to the glory of God -rather than complaining and being outside of God’s will with absenting yourselves from a body of Christ that has been created for your good, and not for your ill or even enjoyment.

Rob Ayers

I can’t speak for everyone here, but I do not think anyone here has suggested that they are “dropping out of church”. In face, I think most would say that they are finally finding church.

By the way, the people that I know personally who agree with this post do not separate themselves from people who disagree. In fact, I’ve found that its possible to have very positive and beneficial relationships with people who have different opinions of what “church” means. My desire – and others that I’ve talked with – is not “my way or the highway”, but “God’s way”… wherever that way leads.

-Alan

As to the “club” remark, it really IS good that those who have similar experiences and feelings can find each other and bond, but we should all be careful that the negative thoughts/experiences of others don’t drag us down.

Haven’t been back yet but feel that if I were just the one in the pew – not the one in the front who is getting the glory for making the sunday morning club happen, I would find little to keep me. It was not relationships that made me want to be a leader. Now relationships are all that matter. Those are better served outside the sunday morning club service.

And by the way, the only time in my life that God has ever “smacked me upside the head” was for being a pharasee. The rest of the time if I am really trying to hear him speak, he has always been more than kind about changing my way.

You’re right, in fact, what started me on this path about two years ago was a group of men asking me “Why?” I found that I had no satisfactory answer from scripture. I know some would disagree. But now, when someone asks me “Why” I can look at scripture and say… “See”.

Thanks for the link. I’ve been looking at some of the pictures – Great!

Robyn

Thanks for stopping by, and for your friend pointing you to my blog. I appreciate the encouraging words. I am always glad to hear from people who have gone through similar things and are enjoying the new things that God is showing them. I will be checking out your links a little later.

Bernard

Thanks… I think :). Your comments and opinions are always welcome here. I do not think anyone here would claim to have all the right answers. We are just trying to learn to obey God together. Sometimes we need people who disagree with us to keep us grounded… and sometimes you’ll need people to do the same.

God has smacked me around a few times already… a lot of the time it has led me further down the course I am on now. But I do pray that he would show me(us) our false ways – if they are false.

Thanks everyone for the great comments!

God’s Glory,
Lew

We’ve been “out” of church for a few months now. The false guilt fades, especially as God begings to allow you to experience REAL church. It feels SO good.

I don’t have the time or the energy to do “fake” church and still fit “REAL chuRch in as well. I’m finding even a little of the REAL thing goes a LOT further than what we’ve been putting up with, and doesn’t leave the sickening aftertaste.

Visit me at http://www.xanga.com/tincottage and
http://www.shoutlife.com/FlamingHeart
if you have time. If you go back a few months and work forward, you’ll see a journey in progress.

God bless you!
Robyn

Welcome to my blog! Your comments are always welcome… I’ll let you know if they’re not fair ;).

Of course I can only relate to my own experiences, and I am by no means saying that every and all traditional church meetings are like this. However, most (if not all) of the ones I have been apart of and/or witnessed share these same faults. I know many churches try different things such as small groups to fulfill which is great. Unfortunately though, even these can sometimes be so strict and rigid that they thwart the very edification and fellowship that they were designed for (probably because you cannot design a program for fellowship).

I’m not one of those people who think that there is a “right” church for me. I guess, the way I see it, the church exists and I have a duty to them all as I come in contact with them. I am usually unable to fulfill these duties during traditional Sunday morning meetings.

As Alan and Steve already eluded to. I do believe I am under authority. Jesus is my authority, he protects me and blesses me. More so than any man… and those men in my life who are more mature than I, who act more like Jesus than I, are men who I carefully listen to and consider.

I really do appreaciate your “twenty bucks” :)… you have some great thoughts and valid concerns.

Alan

Thanks for the encouraging words. I really do appreciate them.

Steve

It is an interested club :). And you’re absolutely right, Jesus is the true shepherd. I think he said that once or twice too!

Thanks everyone for interacting… keep it up!

God’s Glory,
Lew