For the sake of my curiosity, let’s pretend that Osama bin Laden did whatever it takes (according to your belief) to be saved, whether he spoke the Sinner’s Prayer and was baptized by the Holy Spirit… or he simply confessed with his mouth that Jesus is Lord and asked God for forgiveness — whatever it takes in your eyes to be forgiven and accepted into the Kingdom of Heaven.

How would that information make you feel?

Yes, I understand that justice had to be served. I understand that there are consequences for our actions. I know that these constructs exists within human societies for a reason. I accept these terms, but that does not mean that I can rejoice when these constructs are put into action. In an eye-for-an-eye world, Osama bin Laden got what he deserved, I get it.

Ultimately, the death of Osama bin Laden made me consider my own life. I soon realized, that I am not much different from him. I am a man of conviction, a man of religion, sometimes a man with radical beliefs. I have taken what is not mine to take. I am responsible for the suffering of others (even those for whom I love). I am even responsible for the destruction of innocent life. No, my crimes against humanity are not as severe or have as broad of a reach as Osama’s — but my crimes still exist.

I have read comments from close friends and family expressing their pleasure in this man’s death, wishing his suffering had lasted longer, and even thankful that Osama will spend an eternity in Hell. Upon my death, I doubt my friends and family will rejoice, wish that I suffered longer, or hope that I burn in Hell — perhaps they should. Until that time, I am thankful to have the knowledge that my crimes have been forgiven through the work of Jesus. The biggest difference between me and Osama is not our actions on Earth but what Jesus has already done through us.

Golly, I hope I don’t step on any of y’alls toes, but it’s just been on my blasted heart lately.

01. “what’s a handbasket and why do we got to hell in one?” – Isn’t it obvious?

02. should christians believe in santa claus – Yes.

03. muslim vs. baptist – The fight of the century!

04. i need molds of the ten commandments – Don’t we all.

05. how to have church without programs book – I recommend the Bible.

06. help, i don’t want to go to church – Help?

07. thigs to be thankful to god for – Google, peanut butter, and two-ply toliet paper.

08. notes on how to have to be a good pastor wife – Amen.

09. is it biblical to pay church volunteers? – Volunteer?

10. god bless me just a little – Me too.

11. churches say they will forgive if you pay us money – Me too!

When discussing the topic of Sin relative to Hell there are two scripture references that come to mind. The first is, “For the wages of sin is death, but the free gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.” (Romans 6:23) The second is, “Then death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. This is the second death, the lake of fire. And if anyone’s name was not found written in the book of life, he was thrown into the lake of fire.” (Revelation 20:14-15)

If we consider just these two verses, it appears that sin results in death (not Hell). Something else entirely then places us in Hell, namely, not being in the book of life (or Lamb’s Book of Life). These are not the only verses of course, there are others that support this same understanding, like God telling Adam that his punishment would be death. Paul talking about how sin entered the world and death through sin, etc. All of these verses seem to indicate that sin accomplishes death, not hell. Again, I have not found any verses that teach the contrary.

But I have another reason for believing that sin does not send us to Hell. It might seem extra-biblical, but it is only as extra-biblical as believing that our sins send us to Hell. In fact, let us consider that the truth just might very well be that sin does send us to Hell. Where does this put Jesus?

Scripture seems to indicate that Jesus gave himself as a ransom for all (1 Timothy 2:5-6). Jesus is our propitiation (1 John 2:2). Paul says that he died for us (Romans 5:6). But what does this all mean? Basically it means that Christ sacrificed himself, took on our punishment for the sins we commit so we would not have to. Logically, if the punishment for our sins is to be sent to Hell and Jesus took the punishment for our sins then a just God would have to send Jesus to Hell.

At this point we are faced with at least two options:
1) We believe that Jesus is going to be sent to Hell at the appointed time.
2) We believe that Scripture never teaches that our sins send us to Hell.

I choose option 2, not because I am trying to get out of a tough spot, but because it seems to be the simplest reading of Scripture. If option 1 is true, then I think Jesus’ sacrifice has a completely new face. He no longer just died on the cross for us, he will be sent to Hell because of us. However, just as Scripture seems quiet on sins sending us to Hell, it seems abnormally quiet on Jesus being sent to Hell – so I am confident my position.

What do you think?

Thanks for the comment. I assume the “unpardonable sin” you are referring to comes from

“Truly I say to you, all sins shall be forgiven the sons of men, and whatever blasphemies they utter; but whoever blasphemes against the Holy Spirit never has forgiveness, but is guilty of an eternal sin” - Mark 3:28-29

and

“And everyone who speaks a word against the Son of Man, it will be forgiven him; but he who blasphemes against the Holy Spirit, it will not be forgiven him.” - Luke 12:10

I am not really convinced that these verses speak about the final rejection of Christ. The verse seems to be in the context of someone who attributes the power of God to the Devil and accusing them of it.

I agree that the lost (and the saved) will be judged according to their works. However, I am not sure that judgement is the reason for sending one to hell.

Revelation 20:12-15 – And I saw the dead, the great and the small, standing before the throne, and books were opened; and another book was opened, which is the book of life; and the dead were judged from the things which were written in the books, according to their deeds. And the sea gave up the dead which were in it, and death and Hades gave up the dead which were in them; and they were judged, every one of them according to their deeds. Then death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. This is the second death, the lake of fire. And if anyone’s name was not found written in the book of life, he was thrown into the lake of fire.

v.12-13: the dead are judged from the works written in the book (of works)
v.14: Death and Hades are cast into the Lake of Fire (the second death).
v.15: anyone not found in the Book of Life is cast into the Lake of Fire.

As you know, Revelation is sometimes a hard book to interpret because of the symbols it uses. I could be wrong, but here, I think it is clear that the dead are cast into the Lake of Fire because they do not appear in the book of life (not because of their works).

2 Corinthians 5:10 – For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ, so that each one may be recompensed for his deeds in the body, according to what he has done, whether good or bad.

This text does not really talk about our sins causing us to go to Hell. Again, I agree that the lost (and according to this text the saved) will be judged according to their works. I am not too sure how the whole recompense thing works out, but one question that we should pose is: “are temporal sins worth an eternal punishment?”

Matthew 16:27 – For the Son of Man is going to come in the glory of His Father with His angels, and WILL THEN REPAY EVERY MAN ACCORDING TO HIS DEEDS.

This is similar to the previous verse. One may also point to 1 Corinthians 3:12-15. When the works are tested by fire. Those whose works remain receive reward but those whose works are burned up suffers loss. Perhaps this is what the judgement is, and then those who are not found in the Book of Life suffere the second death.

1 Peter 1:17-19 – If you address as Father the One who impartially judges according to each one’s work, conduct yourselves in fear during the time of your stay on earth; knowing that you were not redeemed with perishable things like silver or gold from your futile way of life inherited from your forefathers, but with precious blood, as of a lamb unblemished and spotless, the blood of Christ.

This too is similar to the two previous verses. It really does not talk about the judgment being that which sends one to Hell.

Baptist Theologue, I am not trying to refute your position (or anyone’s position). It may appear that way because of how I handled the verses you gave me. I guess I am just trying to read what the text says without assuming things. Basically if the text says we are judged, then all I take from it is that we are judged (without assuming it is what sends us to Hell). I think this is a safer practice because of the dangers that come from assuming the rest of the text.

Gary

I will answer your questions inline:

Q1: “In order to be “fair,” shouldn’t we have the genuine choice or opportunity to accept Jesus Christ as our Lord and Savior?”

Simply, I was say no, based on Romans Romans 9:20-24:
“On the contrary, who are you, O man, who answers back to God? The thing molded will not say to the molder, ‘Why did you make me like this,’ will it? Or does not the potter have a right over the clay, to make from the same lump one vessel for honorable use and another for common use? What if God, although willing to demonstrate His wrath and to make His power known, endured with much patience vessels of wrath prepared for destruction? And He did so to make known the riches of His glory upon vessels of mercy, which He prepared beforehand for glory, even us, whom He also called, not from among Jews only, but also from among Gentiles.”

I do not know why, but I think there is something different about being causally determined to sin and then being sent to Hell because of those sins. And being causally determined not to accept Christ and then being sent to Hell. I guess part of the reason is because the sins we commit have happened, are happening, and will happen (from our view point) and they are ultimatly by our own doing (even if they are causally determined). However, failure to acknowledge Christ is by God’s doing.

Q2: “Didn’t God create the sin problem?”

This is another issue I have to deal with. Like I said, I do not really like my position on free-will. The only possible explanation is what you have suggested, causal determinism began after Adam’s sin. However, I do not like doing that, because it seems like I’m pulling an answer our of my butt with absolutely no data to support it. It might be one of those “we see through a glass, darkly” things (I hate those too).

Q3: “Was Jesus governed by the law of cause and effect? Did he chose to die for us or was he compelled to do so? “

This is a little easier for me to answer than Q2 because of who Jesus was. One could easily say, yes, Jesus (on Earth) was governed by the law of cause and effect. Then could say, Yes, he chose to die for us. How are these two possible? Easy, Jesus’ choice happened before his conception – which I do not think is too far a stretch from what happened. Then everything that occured after Jesus’ conception happened according to cause and effect (just the way God intended).

Gary, thanks for the comment. I would love to hear what you have to say about the solution to your own Q2.

Drew

Thanks for the link, I will read it when I have some extra time. But first, let me take a poke at your questions:

“Isn’t rejecting Christ itself a sin? And if it is, why isn’t it universally provided for in His sacrifice?”

In a way I knew this question would arise. The easy answer is yes, rejecting Christ is a sin. Some may say it is not universally provided for in His sacrifice because it is an “eternal sin” versus a “temporal sin.” I am not sure that answer works.

You could change the system a little bit and say that going to Hell is a result of not having your name in the Book of Life. So then, anyone who rejects Christ is forgiven, however, because they fail to appear in the Book of Life, they go to Hell. I am not sure I like that answer either, unless you say that only those whose name appears in the Book of Life are those who accept Christ (and vice versa). Even still, the answer still scares me a little.

Again, thank you all for commenting. Let me reassure you again, that I am merely thinking over things. This new system I have written about is not dogma to me, just questions in my mind. Feel free to add more comments.

To me this question has major implications for our free-will. I am one of those people who have a hard time believing that we have free-will. Based on how I know things work I seriously doubt any free-will. I think everything has a cause/effect relationship. Since any effect is caused, which causes another effect, so-on and so-forth, there cannot be free-will. I am fairly confident in my position for this reason and because if you take away the cause/effect relationships when making moral choices, you come up with randomness. You cannot very well make a decision without something effecting the decision and randomness does not make any sense.

Now that I have told you my position on free-will, let me explain that I am not sold on my position. I hold my position because it is the only position that makes sense (to me). However, I do not really like my position. Why? Well because of the question I posed at the beginning of this post.

It does not seem to be “fair” if we go to Hell because of our sins and our sins are an outcome of a cause/effect relationship. Although I think there may be a solution. What if we do not go to Hell because of our sins? What if, instead, we go to Hell because of our failure to acknowledge and accept Jesus Christ as our Lord and Saviour? If so, then our lack of free-will is not problematic. Here are a few texts to think about:

“Therefore, just as through one man sin entered into the world, and death through sin, and so death spread to all men, because all sinned” – Romans 5:12 – We discover that Adam sinned, death resulted. Everyone sinned and so death results in everyone. *NOTE* This text does not talk about sin sending us to Hell, but sin causing us to die.

“He Himself is the propitiation for our sins; and not for ours only, but also for the whole world.” – 1 John 2:2 – Jesus’ propitiation was not just for us but for the whole world. *NOTE* This text does not talk about Jesus’ propitiation saving people from Hell, just about the forgiveness of our sins.

“For God so loved the world, that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him shall not perish, but have eternal life.” – John 3:16 – Whoever believes in the Son will have eternal life.

Now here is my reasoning:

1. God wanted to fix the sin problem in his creation.
2. God sent his son, Jesus, to Earth to sacrifice himself on the cross for the forgiveness of our sins.
3. Jesus’ work applies to all men, everywhere.
4. Forgiveness of sin says nothing about the acceptance of Christ.
5. God elects some to Heaven and the rest to Hell – yes, I believe in double predestination.
   *NOTE* As far as I am concerned, if you believe in single predestination (God only elects those who are going to Heaven) then you must believe in double predestination. Even if God does not “actively” elect those who go to Hell, he is actively electing them by not choosing them for Heaven.
6. Those who he elects to Heaven are sent the Holy Spirit (the sufficient cause to accept Christ’s work).
7. Those who he elects to Hell are not sent the Holy Spirit (a sufficient cause to reject Christ’s work).

So, since we are not sent to Hell for our sins, we do not have to worry about the fairness of our lack of free-will in sinning. We do not need free-will if we are only sent to Hell for our failure to accept Christ’s work and we know that God is the one who chooses who will and who will not accept Christ’s work.

I realize that this is a dangerous topic and that I have pretty much rejected a major idea concerning our sins. I definitely lean towards this system of belief, but I am not sold on it. Which is why I have posted about it. So please, if you read my post, comment and tell me your thoughts.