On my way into the office this morning (launching the new College of Education website for UGA), I was listening to some christian radio. I do not remember the name of the show, but I’ve heard the show before. The hosts were interviewing a man who wrote a book about Obama (at least in part). The author basically said that Obama’s socialist agenda and how he has exponentially sped up the downfall of the United States, God is clearly using Obama as a judgment against America. He remarked that God often times used leaders in the past to judge nations and this is basically the same thing.
Now, I am definitely no Old Testament scholar and my mind is still a little sleepy. But for some reason when I heard this I was a little put off. Some immediate questions popped into my mind… and I am going to ask them of you.
- Do we have an example in Scripture of God judging agnostic nations by with their leaders? I think there might be, but I cannot remember.
- How does inflicting socialism on an agnostic nation result in turning people to God?
- Are other socialist nations, socialist because God is judging them?
1) Do you think Belshazzar fits this picture? Regardless though, Paul was kind of the model of the early Church’s reaction to other nations and I don’t see him anywhere near this issue do you?
2/3) I really doubt God is judging mankind through socialism. Just because the system is naive doesn’t make it evil. I can say that after living here in Belgium for the past 11 months and getting some pretty solid Christians who are also pro socialization. (Although I don’t know of any who are actually calling for all out socialism. But neither is Obama)
Hi Skwirl,
1) I’m not really sure if Belshazzar fits… it’s really hard to say. Was he a judgment against the Jews? Yeah, I don’t really see Paul near this issue.
2/3) Thanks for the perspective on these questions… it’s great to hear about other Christians from non-U.S. areas.
God Speed,
Lew
One name: Nebuchadnezzar.
His selection is probably the best/worst example of God’s judgment using an unwitting leader/servant as the instrument against ancient Israel. Yes, indeed- Ned is a good/bad fit!
V
One name: Nebuchadnezzar.
His selection is probably the best/worst example of God’s judgment using an unwitting leader/servant as the instrument against ancient Israel. Yes, indeed- Ned is a good/bad fit!
OK, then ‘He’ must be Zedekiah.
V
Deuteronomy 28 explains that when a nation covenants with God to follow Him and then strays from Him to serve other god’s – God will set enemies over them that they would have to serve them.He will put a yoke of iron upon their neck until they are destroyed. He will make them borrow from other nations. Another nation with language that is different will be brought against it not regarding young or old.It goes on with several other judgments which we are now experiencing. This is because our nation has forsaken the Lord. The modern day church has foresaken the Lord and have become self centered entertainment centers. The only cure for this judgment is individual and corporate repentance. Thus saith the Lord.
Steve, Are you saying that the covenant god made with the nation of Israel applies to America and all other nations?
Lew
Lew, the principles of God are non-optional, they apply to all His creation. Israel was to be a light of the world. Others would see and be challenged to adopt the same principles and follow the God of Israel who is the ruler of all and all are accountable to Him. Our country was born out of those who followed the God of Israel. There are no set rules for one and not the other. If we are under the Law or not we still will be accountable for the light we are given.
Steve,
So, the covenant God made with Israel, applied to all other nations at that same time (except they probably did not know about it)? And it applies to every nation today? Does that mean that God will use a nation like Afghanistan to punish us in one moment, and in another moment use us to punish Afghanistan? How does this sort of thing play out? How do we know when we are being used by God to punish a nation and when God is using someone else to punish us?
Are there parts of the covenant that do not apply to us/them, that only apply to Israel? If so, how can you tell which ones apply to us?
How did Jesus’ actions affect the covenant that God has with Israel/all nations? How does Jesus’ actions affect all nations today?
Godspeed.
Lew
Thanks Lew.
We know that God is consitent in His dealings with individuals as He is with nations. As individuals again we are judged by the light that is given to us. This Light lightens every man that comes into the world, so there is no excuse if one ignores it. We all have a conscience that bears witness to God’s truth. We can ignore it and face the consequences and hopefully repent.
God chose the seed of Abraham to bless the world by. All power belongs to the Lord. No one can steal this power. God gives power for nations to form. The Scripture says that if any nation forgets God they shall be turned into hell (Psalm 9:17). It is clear that God raises up some nations to chasten other nations. As you can see in Isaiah 10, God used Assyria to chasten Israel and when He was finished Assyria faced God’s judgment. So yes God still is active in the affairs of men and nations.
God’s ways apply universally. Those who follow Him will be blessed and those who don’t will be damned. Abraham’s offspring was chosen by God to show a straying world His mercy and bring them back to the path of truth. He was to bless them if they obeyed and curse them if they didn’t. They were to be the light of the world to show the non optional laws of God.
However the Old Covenant that God made with Abraham’s offspring was to be a tutor to the promised One, who was ordained to arrive on the scene. No one by themself was able or is able to keep the law and therefore one was to look for the Redeemer who was able to keep the law. Christ having kept the law was now able to make a New Covenant with us – which is the New Covenant of faith through the One who kept the first and now through faith in His redemptive work, reconciles to God all who believe. Through the Second Covenant God promises to again write His law in our fleshly heart (which had been corrupted) and give us of His Spirit that would dwell in us. The same Spirit that raised up Jesus from the dead, will quicken our mortal bodies through faith and thence fulfill the law by His Spirit that lives in every believer. The law as we know is spiritual and we are sold into bondage. Does this nullify the law ? No the law still is in effect – not that we keep it in our own fleshly strength but that God through His Holy Spirit keeps it through them that believe.
Your friend in Christ,
Steve
Hi Steve, thanks for answering my questions!
How do you interpret…
Hebrews 8:13? “When He said, ‘A new covenant,’ He has made the first obsolete. But whatever is becoming obsolete and growing old is ready to disappear.”
And Romans 7:6? “But now we have been released from the Law, having died to that by which we were bound, so that we serve in newness of the Spirit and not in oldness of the letter.”
Godspeed.
Lew
Steve,
Splendid commentary.
Moreover, I learned ‘mightily’ after reading your altogether adroit exegesis on the Holy Scriptures.
Go well, in Christ Jesus.
V.
Thanks Vinny and again thanks Lew,
Our Lord said – “Think not that I am come to destroy the law or the prophets, I am not come to destroy but fulfill.”
We are to honor the law because it is a tutor to Christ. He fulfilled the law – not only that He was the law. Those, who are under the curse of the law, have two choices. Either to try and keep the law or dismiss it. If we try to keep it we will be discouraged and fail. This leads us to see our need for a saviour. When we come to the end of ourselves we give up trying and surrender ourselves to the Lord by faith. (now our hearts are now prepared for the good news). By trusting in Christ and His redemptive power we have peace through His finished work.
The law has done its work in bringing us to Christ. So in that sense it was a shadow of things to come and has done its work. There is a greater covenant now – the covenant of faith.
We dont keep the law, we now follow the lawgiver, Christ. His Spirit now lives inside us. We now follow His lead and He gives us the power, not do what we want but to do what we ought. By this we allow Him to keep the law as long as we are surrendered to Him.
We are sealed by the Holy Spirit as a downpayment. He prompts us, brings conviction to us when we err, leads us into all truth, comforts us in all our tribulations, and brings all things to our rememberance.
So we do not on our own focus on the law to try and fulfill it, we focues on the Lord and obey His voice and by His grace we walk in His guidance by the Holy Scriptures.
There were two voices in the Garden of Eden. Adam and Eve chose to follow the wrong voice and thence their only communication that would bring them life, the voice of God, was cut off. Their ability, once They trespassed against God’s voice, was spiritual death.
The error in our culture today is that the temptation to be like God, to know good and evil, is man’s downfall. Man alone in his human intellgence cannot know good and evil. It’s God who pronounces what is good and evil and that is why we have to learn to listen to His voice all over again in order to walk in the path of life again. Now that He lives in us He speaks to our reborn spiritual ears and gives light to our spiritual eyes and gives understanding to our heart, not necessarily our human intelligence. We are to submit our heart to the wisdom of God like a little child and lean not on our own understanding.(Prov3:5,6)
Eating from the tree of knowledge gave Adam and Eve the sense that they could figure their way(there is a way that seems right and therein is the way of death). But God did not give us a mind to determine truth by itself. Our heart is to meditate on truth. It is our heart that believes (Ro. 10:10) We hear God’s voice in our hearts. Man tries in His own reasoninngs to fulfill the law and can’t. We have a spirit and a soul and the physical body. The real you is the spiritual. With our spirit being reborn we now have to peacable wisdom from above that we now see what the world cannot. They still in the energy of the soul may try and fulfill God’s law and can’t. we now being born again have the power (that Paul repeatedly talked about – 1 Cor 4:20).
The first covenant was to show us that we could not keep the law in the energy of the soul. The second covenant was God giving us the ability by His power to follow Him and then He keeps the law through us – not ourselves.
We are now delivered from the first covenant because it is already fulfilled in Christ. However as we surrender to Him (notably a struggle Ro 6,7,9), His spirit in us does not commit adultery, does not lie, does not covet, does not kill,etc. But if we in our self will disobey the Holy spirit we grieve Him and quench His power in our life. His Spirit will try and correct us and then we should repent. As newborn babes some require more correcting than othersd depending on our background. As we mature in the Lord there is less correction but more tribulation as we face the world, who are convicted by the Holy Spirit working in our lives. The Holy Spirit then gives us the power to bless those who curse us, do good to those that hate us and pray for those who persecute us.
We are now royal subjects in God’s Kingdom, it does not yet appear what it will be. But we grow in faith understanding more and more what it is going to be. The world cannot see it but we can percieve it through faith. Hope seen is not hope. So we hope in things we perceive not what we see with the carnal eyes. Its the Holy Spirit in us that gives us that perception.
I dont’ want to take up to much of your space. If you have any further question please let me know. Or if not made clear please let me know.
God bless,
Steve
For the nation and kingdom that will not serve thee shall perish; yea, those nations shall be utterly wasted. (Isaiah 60:12)
Steve and Others:
Good disertation Steve. A very helpful tool is the
video&book – ‘Isaiah 9:10 Judgement’ you can get it
at Amazon.
Regards,
Keith J