Last week I emailed my friend, Benjamin (the associate pastor of the church I meet with). I emailed him to ask him his position on the subject of church covenants. The bi-vocational pastor of this church just finished up a four week sermon series from the church covenant, and I took issue with it. I ended up having a conversation with Benjamin about church covenants. I asked for his permission to post the emails here and he graciously obliged. I have decided to break up each post into two emails; an email to Benjamin and then his reply. This will lighten the burden of those interested in reading this correspondence. So, without further ado, I give you the third set of two emails…
From Me:
Hey Benjamin,
Thanks again for the quick response – you’re right this is a good discussion. I am glad we are having it. I enjoy getting the opportunity to civilly discuss these things – they so often turn into uncivil conversations.
I can see that signing the covenant is similar to the seminary profs signing the abstract and bfm2k – the only difference being that it is a “test of orthodoxy” to be employed at the agency. Rather than a “test of orthodoxy” to be a “member” of the church agency. I am not sure if we both agree, but as I see it, church-membership is a man-made institution. Being a card-carrying member of Holly Grove Baptist Church neither affirms nor negates my being a member in the Church (Body of Christ). Thus, and further, being a “member” only means I have the right to vote at business meetings – hardly a concept found in scripture. I wonder, if being a “church member” actually means that we are saved believers in Christ’s church (body), is there really such thing as “unregenerate church membership”?
You said, “If we are truly committed we should have no problem acknowledging the covenant, and can rejoice together in that unity.” Again, I have to ask some questions. What if a saved member/potential-member of the church-agency disagrees with something in the covenant? Say it is 1 to 99 vote but what he disagrees on is not a biblical issue at all. Would this promote unity or promote disunity? What if the issue is Biblical, but not really clear (such as end times beliefs)? It seems to me that the “church covenant” might have to be very, very broad and abstract to allow for wiggle room. *As a side note, I do not think that Holly Grove’s is as abstract as it might need to be.
You also said, “I suppose if they will not there would be no need for formal church discipline as the person is technically no longer a member.” Do you think the Bible makes a distinction of those who can be in church discipline? Meaning, do you think that we only have a responsibility (according to Scripture) to only discipline people who are card-carrying members of our local body? Further, does failure to sign the covenant remove the responsibility of the person who needs discipline to listen to his brothers and more importantly the Holy Spirit?
Ultimately I think you are right, the “church covenant” does promote unity – but not the type of unity Christ calls for. Rather it is usually the type of unity we receive when we have cut off everyone who disagrees with us, which is hardly unity at all. (Don’t get me wrong, I’m not promoting Ecumenicalism… I don’t like those kind of labels anyway).
For what it is worth, Kati and I do not meet the current Holly Grove church covenant standards. This does not upset me because I do not believe in church covenants, and frankly, I do not believe in church membership (apart from the membership that we have as Christ’s church). We’re also not planning on signing the covenant either because those standards do not line up with what God has asked of us.
Thoughts?
Lew
From Benjamin (reply in-line using red text):
You’re right, they often do turn into un-civil conversations. I appreciate a good thought-provoking discussion where we can agree to disagree at times.I replied to your email below amidst your text due to time constraints at work.————– Original message ————–
From: “Lew A”
Hey Benjamin,Thanks again for the quick response – you’re right this is a good discussion. I am glad we are having it. I enjoy getting the opportunity to civilly discuss these things – they so often turn into uncivil conversations.
I can see that signing the covenant is similar to the seminary profs signing the abstract and bfm2k – the only difference being that it is a “test of orthodoxy” to be employed at the agency. Rather than a “test of orthodoxy” to be a “member” of the church agency (like seminaries, this is beside the point but true). I am not sure if we both agree, but as I see it, church-membership is a man-made institution. Being a card-carrying member of Holly Grove Baptist Church neither affirms nor negates my being a member in the Church (Body of Christ) (yes). Thus, and furt her, being a “member” only means I have the right to vote at business meetings – hardly a concept found in scripture. I wonder, if being a “church member” actually means that we are saved believers in Christ’s church (body), is there really such thing as “unregenerate church membership”? (Here is, I think, where we are seeing things differently. Being a “church member” certainly does not grant salvation, but does/should represent one who claims to be regenerate. We both agree that there is a Universal Church Body which supercedes our local congregation, but the difference is that we don’t/can’t know who is and is not a part of that universal Body. So, what we can do at the local level is committ to one another and implement some accountability…such as a church covenant. Now, in regards to what is contained within the covenant I would rank theological issues as 1st, 2nd, and 3rd order issues (admittedly the distinctions between these are debatable) and keep the issues addressed in the covenant at the 1st and 2nd order level.
You said, “If we are truly committed we should have no problem acknowledging the covenant, and can rejoice together in that unity.” Again, I have to ask some questions. What if a saved member/potential-member of the church-agency disagrees with something in the covenant? Say it is 1 to 99 vote but what he disagrees on is not a biblical issue at all. Would this promote unity or promote disunity? What if the issue is Biblical, but not really clear (such as end times beliefs)? It seems to me that the “church covenant” might have to be very, very broad and abstract to allow for wiggle room. *As a side note, I do not think that Holly Grove’s is as abstract as it might need to be. (Granted, this does place much weight on the issues addressed in the covenant. Again, keep them at the 1st and 2nd order levels–like the BFM 2000 and arguably the Abstract of P’s–a nd this eliminates many potential problems. It will need to be broad, but is nevertheless necessary.)
You also said, “I suppose if they will not there would be no need for formal church discipline as the person is technically no longer a member.” Do you think the Bible makes a distinction of those who can be in church discipline? Meaning, do you think that we only have a responsibility (according to Scripture) to only discipline people who are card-carrying members of our local body? Further, does failure to sign the covenant remove the responsibility of the person who needs discipline to listen to his brothers and more importantly the Holy Spirit? (Once again, your questions are valid but it is impossible to know who are truly members of the Universal Church. Thus, we are responsible for those who are a part of our local congregation. If one does not sign the covenant it is the church’s responsibility to pursue the brother/sister and i mplore why they didn’t sign be it moral issues or theological. I think this answers the question, but maybe I’m misinterpreting)
Ultimately I think you are right, the “church covenant” does promote unity – but not the type of unity Christ calls for. Rather it is usually the type of unity we receive when we have cut off everyone who disagrees with us, which is hardly unity at all. (Don’t get me wrong, I’m not promoting Ecumenicalism… I don’t like those kind of labels anyway). (What type of unity, then, is Christ calling for?)
For what it is worth, Kati and I do not meet the current Holly Grove church covenant standards. This does not upset me because I do not believe in church covenants, and frankly, I do not believe in church membership (apart from the membership that we have as Christ’s church). We’re also not planning on signing the covenant either because those standards do not line up with what God has asked of us. (I don’t know if Lee is moving toward a signing of the covenant for members, but if he is I support it though I understand your position.)
*NOTE* I have disabled commenting on all but the last in this series of posts. This way comments can be made after reading the entire conversation.